ERROR I: "The 1000 years of Rev 20:1-7 starts before Christ's Return"

 

  1. The "1000 years" Millennium starts with the binding, casting & sealing of Satan into his prison below in the Abyss, (Rev 20:1-3), and with the Resurrection of the Blessed & Holy Ones, (Rev 20:4, the first of the two groups of souls of dead people that are resurrected in Rev 20:4-6).

  2. The Resurrection of the Blessed & Holy Ones of Rev 20:4 = 1 Thess 4:16's Rising of the Dead in Christ. Otherwise would mean the Resurrection of the Blessed & Holy Ones, (Rev 20:4), was an event distinct & prior to 1 Thess 4:16, that it was a past experience in the lives of the Apostles, thus driving the conclusion that Rev 20:4 was a "coming to covenant life," (being born-again). This, in turn, would drive the conclusion that the Resurrection of the Rest of the Dead of Rev 20:5a was a "coming to covenant life," as well, since it uses the same words in an adjacent verse. The implication, then, would be that whether one lives & dies as "Blessed & Holy" or as "the Rest of the Dead," he still eventually "comes to covenant life," making faith & obedience to Christ irrelevant to one's eternal fate. That conclusion is Universalism, a cancerous doctrine at odds with Scriptures' command to obey to the Word of God the Judge of all men. Note also, Rev 20:5a ≠ 1 Thess 4:16 because there is no mention of non-Christians, ("the Rest of the Dead" of Rev 20:5a), being raised up alongside "the Dead in Christ" in 1 Thess 4:16.

  3. The Rising of the Dead in Christ, (1 Thess 4:16 & Rev 20:4), cannot begin before the Return of Christ since 1 Thess 4:16 teaches these events happen in the same moment.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve, as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord HImself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. 5 Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know full well that THE DAY OF THE LORD will come just like a thief in the night. 3 While they are saying, "Peace and safety!" then destruction will come upon them suddenly like birth pangs upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that THE DAY should overtake you like a thief; 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of DAY. We are not of night nor of darkness; 6 so then let us not sleep as the rest do, but let us be alert and sober. 7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night. 8 But since we are of THE DAY, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you also are doing.

Revelation 20:1-8
1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a THOUSAND YEARS, 3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the THOUSAND YEARS were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a THOUSAND YEARS. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the THOUSAND YEARS were completed). This is the first resurrection. 6 Blesssed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a THOUSAND YEARS.7 And when the THOUSAND YEARS are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out ...
NASB
 


I b.  ERROR: Theories starting the "1000 years" Millennium before 2nd Timothy was written. (Hymenaeus)

  1. The "1000 years" Millennium starts with the binding, casting & sealing of Satan into his prison below in the Abyss, (Rev 20:1-3), and with the Resurrection of the Blessed & Holy Ones, (Rev 20:4, the first of the two groups of souls of dead people that are resurrected in Rev 20:4-6).

  2. The Resurrection of the Blessed & Holy Ones of Rev 20:4 = the Resurrection that Paul insisted was still future to the time 2 Timothy 2:18 was penned, (around 62AD). Otherwise would mean the Resurrection of the Blessed & Holy Ones was a past experience in the lives of the Apostles equating it with the error of Hymenaeus & Philetus.

  3. Therefore, the "1000 years" Millennium of Rev 20:4-6 cannot begin before 2 Tim 2:18 was written around 62AD because that would support the error of Hymenaeus & Philetus that the apostle Paul condemned as a cancerous doctrine.

2 Timothy 2:17-18
Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place [prior to the writing of this epistle], and thus they upset the faith of some.

Revelation 20:1-8
1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a THOUSAND YEARS, 3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the THOUSAND YEARS were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a THOUSAND YEARS. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the THOUSAND YEARS were completed). This is the first resurrection. 6 Blesssed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a THOUSAND YEARS.7 And when the THOUSAND YEARS are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out ...
NASB
 


I c. ERROR: Theories starting the "1000 years" Millennium before the New Testament was completed. (Satan)

  1. The "1000 years" Millennium starts with the binding, casting & sealing of Satan into his prison below in the Abyss, (Rev 20:1-3), and with the Resurrection of the Blessed & Holy Ones, (Rev 20:4, the first of the two groups of souls of dead people that are resurrected in Rev 20:4-6).

  2. Following their resurrection, the Blessed & Holy ones reign with Christ throughout the "1000 years" Millennium, (Rev 20:4-6), while Satan remains sealed into his prison in the Abyss below, (Rev 20:1-3 & Rev 20:7).

  3. The "1000 years" Millennium ends with the release of Satan from his prison in the Abyss below, (Rev 20:3 & Rev 20:7), and with the Resurrection of the Rest of the Dead, (Rev 20:5a, the second of the two groups of souls of dead people that are resurrected in Rev 20:4-6).

  4. The New Testament records more harrassment from Satan against God's People, (Christians), during the 30-70AD period in which the New Testament was written than all other history combined, describing Satan fittingly as "a roaring lion walking about, seeking whom he may devour," LINK, hardly bound & imprisoned into the Abyss below. Additionally, there is no credible hermeneutic by which to construe the casting out of individual demons from individual men by Jesus in the Gospels as the binding, casting & sealing of Satan into the Abyss below as foreseen over 20 years later in Rev 20:1-3, LINK. If the period recorded by the New Testament, about 30-70AD, describes the state of affairs during the "1000 years" Millennium when the Devil/Satan is bound, cast & sealed into his prison in the Abyss below as Rev 20:1-3 describes, and yet, despite this Satan was still able to perform all his activities against Christians the New Testament so abundantly records, then it is fair to conclude from Scripture that the Devil/Satan is able to keep performing among us today and into the future much the same activities recorded by the New Testament since not even that prison could stop him, if the Millennium had indeed begun prior to the completion of the New Testament writings c. 70AD.

  5. The New Testament anticipates the reign of the Saints to begin no sooner than Christ's anticipated Return, the good & faithful servants each receiving delegated authority from the Lord Jesus as their reward for their service while He was away, There is no credible hermeneutic by which to construe that reigning had already begun prior to the completion of the New Testament corpus, LINK. If the period recorded by the New Testament, (c. 30-70AD), is what we experience whenever, (per Rev 20:1-6), the Saints reign with Christ then we should expect life under the reign of the Saints & Christ to continue to be the same as during New Testament times: singles should be advised not to marry because of the distress & darkness of the times whenever Saints rule and the Devil/Satan is imprisoned; God's ministers should expect to be hounded from town to town and treated like the scum of the earth and have messengers of Satan sent to buffet them, etc., just like Paul & the rest of the Apostles during the time the New Testament was written, (30-70AD), if the Saints indeed reigned then, the "1000 years" Millennium having supposedly already begun.

1 Peter 5:8-11
Be of sober spirit, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour. 9 But resist him, firm in your faith, knowing that the same experiences of suffering are being accomplished by your brethren who are in the world. 10 And after you have suffered for a little while, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. 11 To Him be dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 20:1-8
1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a THOUSAND YEARS, 3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the THOUSAND YEARS were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a THOUSAND YEARS. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the THOUSAND YEARS were completed). This is the first resurrection. 6 Blesssed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a THOUSAND YEARS.7 And when the THOUSAND YEARS are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out ...
NASB


I d. ERROR: Theories starting the "1000 years" Millennium before the arrival of the Beast & his mark.

  1. The "1000 years" Millennium starts with the binding, casting & sealing of Satan into his prison below in the Abyss, (Rev 20:1-3), and with the Resurrection of the Blessed & Holy Ones, (Rev 20:4, the first of the two groups of souls of dead people that are resurrected in Rev 20:4-6).

  2. The Blessed & Holy Ones are the dead who refused to worship the Beast and receive his mark, Rev 20:4.

  3. It is not possible to be awarded the Blessed & Holy Resurrection, (the first resurrection of Rev 20:4-6), before being beheaded for refusing the Beast & his mark before the Beast & his mark even arrive to test Christians.

Revelation 20:1-8
1 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a THOUSAND YEARS, 3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the THOUSAND YEARS were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a THOUSAND YEARS. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the THOUSAND YEARS were completed). This is the first resurrection. 6 Blesssed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a THOUSAND YEARS.7 And when the THOUSAND YEARS are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out ...
NASB


 

Revelation 20 & Universalism

I know you are busy, but could you take just a brief moment and fill me in on
  • [Part A] how you view the Rev. 20 passage and
  • [Part B] how a wrong view there can open the door to universalism.
Being slow of mind, it will help me to get up to speed. So thanks so much for doing this. Don't take a lot of time, just a brief response. ~WH
 
The above is a reasonable 2-part question. What follows is my 2-part answer.
 
[Part A] How I view the Rev 20 passage can be found at: LINK
 
[Part B] How the wrong view Rev 20, "Rev 20 was all fulfilled by 70 AD," leads to Universalism:
  1.    Revelation 20:4 describes the coming to life of the souls of those slain for their witness for Jesus and for rejecting the mark of the Beast. This is the first of two groups of souls resurrected from the dead in Rev 20:4-6. Since the participants of this first resurrection are declared blessed and holy, we may justly call this, "The Blessed & Holy Resurrection." Its participants are rewarded by reigning with Christ for a thousand years and are granted immunity from the anticipated Second Death.
  2.    Revelation 20:5 describes the coming to life of "the rest of the dead" at the end of the thousand years. We may call this, "The Resurrection of the Rest of the Dead."
  3.    Whether one understands the term "thousand years" to mean 1000 years, 1000 hours, or a 1000 seconds, it is still describing a span of time with the aforementioned events marking its starting and ending points.
  4.    When this span of time is made to terminate at 70AD, the starting point is made to be some time before the disappearance of the New Testament writers. This forces the Blessed & Holy Resurrection (Rev 20:4) to become an experience already available to the New Testament writers while yet in their mortal-natural bodies of flesh, (error of Hymenaeus, 2 Timothy 2:18). To accommodate this, the "come to life" of Revelation 20:4 is made to mean "come to covenant life."
  5.    Someone who buys into point 4) then reads Revelation 20:5a and sees that "the Rest of the Dead" eventually "came to covenant life" with the same grammar and vocabulary by which the Blessed & Holy of Revelation 20:4 "come to covenant life" a thousand years earlier.
  6.    He concludes, then, that whether one dies as a Blessed & Holy witness for Jesus (Rev 20:4) or as the Rest of the Dead (Rev 20:5), his final stance with God is the same: he still "comes to covenant life." That belief is commonly known as Universalism.
Summary: "Full" Preterism (Covenant Eschatology) interprets the word "covenant" into the Text of Rev 20:4-6 to make the Blessed & Holy Resurrection (first resurrection, Rev 20:4) precede Christ's Return by decades so that the Resurrection of the Rest of the Dead (Rev 20:5a) may occur at the moment of Christ's Return. Consistently applied, this addition to the Text forms the basis for "Full" Preterist Universalism.

Revelation 20:4-5 ~foreseen around 63AD in the predictive vision given to the exiled Apostle John of "things shortly to come to pass," Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1
And I foresaw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I foresaw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to convenantal life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to convenantal life until the thousand years were completed.
NASB

Rev 20:4 "come to life" = "come to life" of Rev 20:5

Response to ProphecyHistory.com's "Rev 20 & Universalism"
[D quoting W]
>> .....could you take just a brief moment and fill me in on
> > how you view the Rev. 20 passage and how a wrong view there
> > can open the door to universalism........

[D quoting ProphecyHistory.com]
> 5) When one then reads Revelation 20:5 and sees that "the
> rest of the dead" eventually "came to life" with the same
> grammar and vocabulary by which the Just of Revelation 20:4
> "come to life" earlier, he natually concludes that "the rest
> of the dead" eventually come to "be born again," or "have
> eternal life," or attain the same "spirituo- covenant
> STANCE with God."
>
> 6) He concludes that whether one lays down his life as a
> martyr for Jesus (Rev 20:4) or if goes along with the rest of
> the dead (Rev 20:5), his final status with God is the same:
> he attains to the same "spirituo-covenant STANCE with God."
> That belief is commonly known as Universalism.


[D]
Hi John, :)

Those who took part in "the first resurrection" were "blessed and holy" (Rev. 20:4-6). The implication is that not everyone who took part in the subsequent resurrection was blessed and holy. Rev. 20:12-15 confirms that not everyone who partook of the latter resurrection was blessed and holy.
In the Received Text, "the same vocabulary" is not used. In Rev. 20:4, the Greek word is zao (lived). In Rev. 20:5, the Greek word is anazao (lived again). But even if we go with the Alexandrian textbase, which uses the same word in both verses, the fact that those who took part in "the first resurrection" and those who made up "the rest of the dead" both had "life" ("zao") does not necessarily mean that they both had the same kind of life. In Rev. 13:14, the beast also "came to life" ("same vocabulary": zao). In Rev. 16:3, every soul that had "life" died ("same vocabulary": zao). In Rev. 19:20, the beast and the false prophet were both cast "alive" into the lake of fire ("same vocabulary": zao). These instances of "life" (zao) in the book of Revelation do not mean the same kind of life. Therefore no conclusion can be drawn from the mere repetition of the word in Rev. 20:4 and 5.
"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice [the gospel] of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live [the first resurrection]. (Jn. 5:25)

"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs [the rest of the dead] shall hear His voice, and shall come forth [i.e., shall live]; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment" (Jn. 5:28,29).

D
.
Rebuttal: Rev 20:4’s “come to life” = “come to life” of Rev 20:5
[D quoting W] .....could you take just a brief moment and fill me in on how you view the Rev. 20 passage and how a wrong view there can open the door to universalism........
[ProphecyHistory.com] Let us notice how W asked for a brief explanation specifically about Rev 20 and nothing more.
[D quoting ProphecyHistory.com]
5) When one then reads Revelation 20:5 and sees that "the rest of the dead" eventually "came to life" with the same grammar and vocabulary by which the Just of Revelation 20:4 "come to life" earlier, he naturally concludes that "the rest of the dead" eventually come to "be born again," or "have eternal life," or attain the same "spirituo- covenant STANCE with God."
6) He concludes that whether one lays down his life as a martyr for Jesus (Rev 20:4) or if goes along with the rest of the dead (Rev 20:5), his final status with God is the same: he attains to the same "spirituo-covenant STANCE with God." That belief is commonly known as Universalism.
[ProphecyHistory.com] Notice how you, (D), omitted mention of the context I provided by omitting my point 4). Was it inconvenient to your argument? Here it is again:
[from original article by ProphecyHistory.com]
4) When this span of time [Rev 20:1-10's "Thousand Years"] is made to terminate at 70AD, the beginning point is made to be sometime during the lifetime of the New Testament writers. This forces the Resurrection of the Just (v4) to become something that the New Testament writers already possessed while still in their bodies of flesh, (the error of 2 Timothy 2:18 – “the timing” does indeed affect “the nature”). The Resurrection of the Just, (Revelation 20:4), then becomes "being born again/baptised," or "having eternal life," or "spirituo-covenant STANCE with God.”
[D] Hi John, :)
[ProphecyHistory.com] Nice to meet you.
[D] Those who took part in "the first resurrection" were "blessed and holy" (Rev. 20:4-6). The implication is that not everyone who took part in the subsequent resurrection was blessed and holy. Rev 20:12-15 confirms that not everyone who partook of the latter resurrection was blessed and holy.
[ProphecyHistory.com] Agreed. You are butressing my point all the more here. Thank you. Firstly, you just identified Rev 20:4 and Rev 20:5 as resurrections; resurrections of two different groups of souls. You state my case that Rev 20:5's resurrection of "the rest of the dead" CANNOT be equated with "being born again/baptised," "having eternal life," "enjoying spirituo-covenant STANCE with God." Therefore, I say, Rev 20:4's resurrection CANNOT be "being born again/baptised," "having eternal life," "enjoying spirituo-covenant STANCE with God," since as I demonstrated, the tightly bound verses of Rev 20:4 and Rev 20:5 employ the same grammar and vocabulary to describe what occurs to the two groups of souls.
[D] In the Received Text, "the same vocabulary" is not used. In Rev. 20:4, the Greek word is zao (lived). In Rev. 20:5, the Greek word is ana-zao (lived again).
[ProphecyHistory.com] This is grasping, especially noteworthy since 30-70AD Millennialism relies heavily upon associating similarly worded passages to make its claims. "Lived" of Textus Receptus' Rev 20:4 is virtually identical with Textus Receptus' Rev 20:5's "lived again." The bond between them is tightened all the more when we hold in view the actual passage "And I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast [Nero], neither had received his mark upon their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were fininshed." Verse 5's use of the word "But..." communicates that the notable difference between these two events was the timing, a thosand years later. Its straining to say that v4 is using "lived" to say "they were born again, received eternal life, attained to a spirituo-covenant STANCE with God" but v5 is using "lived again" to say a different thing altogether. The one who does this forfiets credibility on any other association between Scriptures.
[D] But even if we go with the Alexandrian textbase, which uses the same word in both verses, ...
[ProphecyHistory.com] A second weighty admission of fact on your part. You just said that the earliest major Text base in our possession, a Text base upon which many Bible scholars hold in such esteem as to prefer it for Bible translations, agrees with what I wrote about how Rev 20:4's Resurrection of Just souls employs the same vocabulary and grammar to describe Rev 20:5's Resurrection of "the rest of the dead." You are conceding much more ground than you imagine to be gaining. And the Majority Text employs the same word in both Rev 20:4 & 5, as well.
[D] ...the fact that those who took part in "the first resurrection" and those who made up "the rest of the dead" both had "life" ("zao") does not necessarily mean that they both had the same kind of life....
[ProphecyHistory.com] A third admission of fact: both the Just of Rev 20:4 and Rev 20:5's "the rest of the dead" both had "life" ("zao"). Again, you are straining to veer away from the plain words of the Text. You are trying to find a way to say that two adjacent verses, employing the same vocabulary about the same subject (resurrection of the souls of the Just and "the rest of the dead") are talking about two different kinds of "zao." Not credible, especially when one recalls what great lengths to which 30-70AD Millennialists go to make their points by associating similarly worded passages.
[D] In Rev. 13:14, the beast also "came to life" ("same vocabulary": zao). In Rev. 16:3, every soul that had "life" died ("same vocabulary": zao). In Rev. 19:20, the beast and the false prophet were both cast "alive" into the lake of fire ("same vocabulary": zao). These instances of "life" (zao) in the book of Revelation do not mean the same kind of life.
[ProphecyHistory.com] False. They can ALL easily mean the same kind of life: animation of a body. So can Rev 20:5. Further, we know that not a one of those mentioned verses can possibly be equated with "being born again/baptised," "having eternal life," "enjoying spirituo-covenant STANCE with God." So why make such a strained effort to defend this one stand out (Rev 20:4) to represent "being born again/baptised," "having eternal life," "enjoying spirituo-covenant STANCE with God" ?
[D] Therefore no conclusion can be drawn from the mere repetition of the word in Rev. 20:4 and 5.
[ProphecyHistory.com] Once again, you have just conceded another piece of my argument: you just admitted that Rev 20:4 and Rev 20:5 employ the same word to describe the action upon these two groups of souls. But you insist upon a false conclusion based upon strained, self-refuting arguments. Meanwhile, a host of truly credible arguments out there against 30- 70AD Millennialism's word associations fall on deaf ears.
[D] "Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice [the gospel] of the Son of God; and those who hear shall live [the first resurrection]. (Jn. 5:25)
"Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs [the rest of the dead] shall hear His voice, and shall come forth [i.e., shall live]; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment" (Jn. 5:28,29).
[ProphecyHistory.com] D, If you cannot admit to the plain connection between two adjacent verses (Rev 20:4 & Rev 20:5) from the same passage (Rev 20:4-6 – as you mentioned) that employ the same vocabulary ("zao") to talk about the same process ("resurrection" - your own word), then you wield no credibility to make any other connection, whether correctly or not. Let's remember how W's question limited the scope to a brief treatment of Rev 20. "Could you take just a brief moment and fill me in on how you view the Rev. 20 passage and how a wrong view there can open the door to universalism?" Why not keep the focus on demonstrating the relationships between the contiguous verses of the Text in question,(Rev 20), before attempting associations with more distant passages?
I believe I have amply satisfied W's question and overcome your (D's) objections. I may be busy getting a house ready to rent these coming 3 weeks, but will try to check in for additional interaction. Please do not feel slighted if it takes me a while. Please do not consider my firm doctrinal stance against your handling of Scripture here to be against your person. And do not feel shy to critique my words.
ProphecyHistory.com
*Feel FREE to claim as your own anything I write - while I retain the right to do the same the same with it.*

"Having Eternal Life" is not equal to "Being Raised Up at the Last Day"

Having eternal life is not being raised up at the Last Day, John 6:39-40 & John 6:44 & John 6:54.
Having eternal life is not the Resurrection unto Life, John 5:28-29.
Having eternal life is not the Resurrection of the Just to which Paul predicted, Acts 24:15.
Having eternal life is not the Resurrection of the Dead for which Paul still yearned, Philippians 3:1-14.
Having eternal life is not the dead in Christ rising first at Christ's Return, 1 Thess 4:16.
Having eternal life is not the First Resurrection, Rev 20:4-6.

Someone else has written, "Preterism is an interpretive system that is locked on the events of 66-70 A.D. It views this as the decisive eschatological event. The Second Coming, Resurrection of the Dead and Great Judgment are seen as having taken place in and around these years."

I agree with this statement. And I would be considered a Preterist for doing so. But I see an inconsistency is its author's system of thought as layed out in other places. Though he admits that the Last Day and its associated events began somewhere around 66-70AD, he continues to confuse the blessing of Eternal Life that was granted BEFORE these events with the Resurrection that was to come AFTER these events. But Jesus made a distinction between the two:

"Whoso eatheth My Flesh, and drinketh My Blood, hath Eternal Life, and I will raise him up at the Last Day." ~ Jesus, circa AD 28.
Jesus uses present tense "hath" to describe what Lord's Supper partakers ALREADY HAD BEFORE the Last Day, ("Hath Eternal Life").
Jesus uses future tense "I will" to describe what Lord's Supper partakers WERE TO RECEIVE AT the Last Day, ("I will raise him up").
(This promise would be innane if Jesus was going to raise up everybody else at the Last Day, too).

The Scriptures that speak in past or present tense of what believers already had in Christ are talking about them already having "Eternal Life."
The Scriptures that speak in future tense of what believers would receive at the anticipated Resurrection are talking about "Being Raised Up."
But many Preterists gladly confuse the two: they like to equate John 6:54's "Eternal Life" with John 6:54's "Being Raised Up."
(As mainstream Christianity would put it, "They confuse Justification with Resurrection").

So when someone gladly and consistently and insistently and publically equates
A) all the Scriptures that describe what pre-Parousia Christians ALREADY HAD BEFORE the Last Day, ("Hath Eternal Life"),
with
B) all the Promised blessings that were TO BE GRANTED AT the Last Day, ("I will raise him up"),
he is only attempting to spread his confusion. (Why not just back up and quietly think again?)



IN SUMMARY:

IF we hold to a Preterism defined strictly in this wise: "Preterism is an interpretive system that is locked on the events of 66-70 A.D. It views this as the decisive eschatological event. The Second Coming, Resurrection of the Dead and Great Judgment are seen as having taken place in and around these years," that is, the Last Day occured in or about 66-70 A.D.

AND we agree with Jesus in John 6:54 that those who were regular partakers of the Lord's Supper already had Eternal Life
and were to receive Resurrection at the Last Day,

THEN we should agree that there is no honest way any of those Scriptures describing what Christians already had prior to the Parousia can be employed to describe the Resurrection for which those Christians yearned. Already received pre-Parousia blessings (Eternal Life) are distinct from anticipated post-Parousia blessings (Resurrection). "Eternal Life" and "The Resurrection of the Just" are not the same thing.

For a fuller explanation of the distinction between "Eternal Life" and "the Resurrection of the Just" please follow this link:

Soul & Body: the 2 Parts of Resurrection

In brief,

1) "Eternal Life" = Resurrection of the Inner Man, the Soul

2) "Raised Up" = Resurrection of the Outer Man, the Body

"Whoso eatheth My Flesh, and drinketh My Blood, hath Eternal Life, and I will raise him up at the Last Day." ~ Jesus, around AD 28, (John 6:54)

"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in Hell." (Matthew 10:28)



*Feel FREE to claim as your own anything I write - while I retain the right to do the same the same with it.*

The Postribulational (i.e. post AD 70) Beginning of the Millennium

From: http://planetpreterist.com/news-5174.html

The Postribulational (i.e. post AD 70) Beginning of the Millennium
by Duncan McKenzie
Revelation 20:1-4 shows the binding of Satan and the beginning of the reign of the saints that is commonly known as the millennium.

1. Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.

3. and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousands years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

4. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

This is the famous passage of the binding of Satan and the reign of Jesus and His people. On the surface this passage appears relatively simple; on closer inspection, however, it turns out to be one of the most difficult and debated passages in the Bible. One of the first matters to attend to in understanding the millennium is the question of how it fits in sequentially in relation to the rest of Revelation. Is the binding of Satan in Revelation 20:1 a continuation of the events of Revelation 19 (the AD 70 fall of Babylon and the Second Coming) or is there a recapitulation (a going back and restating events that happened earlier)? Some say that there is a recapitulation here, that Revelation 20 is going back to the time of Pentecost (c. AD 30) or even the beginning of Jesus’ ministry (c. AD 26). My position is that Revelation 20 is a continuation of the (AD 70) events of Revelation 19, not a recapitulation to the time around AD 30.

In considering the sequence of Revelation 19-20, it is helpful to broaden one’s focus. Here is Revelation 19:11-20:4 without the chapter separation (chapter separations were not part of the original manuscript). For brevity I have left out Revelation 19:12-18 which is mostly a description of the One on the white horse (the Word of God, Rev. 19:13).

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True and in righteousness He judges and makes war…And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh. Then I saw an angel coming down form heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. Revelation 19:11, 19-20:4

Notice the sequence in Revelation19-20. The individual beast and false prophet (the one who made people take the mark of the beast Rev. 13:11-18) are captured at the Second Coming in chapter 19 and put in the lake of fire. Satan is then taken and thrown in the abyss as the kingdom is established in chapter 20. Those who had lost their lives for not taking the mark of the beast (cf. Rev. 19:20; 13:15-16) are then resurrected in Revelation 20:4 at the beginning of the millennium. God was letting His first century audience know that the one who was faithful to Him to the point of death (cf. Rev. 2:10-11) would still get to participate in the soon coming millennial reign (Rev. 2:25-27; 3:21).

Notice the reference to the mark of the beast as a past event in both chapter 19 and 20. Revelation 20 is a continuation of the AD 70 narrative of the Second Coming not a recapitulation to AD 30.

Rev. 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshipped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

In Revelation 13:1-10 the seven churches were warned about the soon coming individual beast (cf. Rev. 17:18) that would overcome the saints. In Revelation 13:11-18 they were warned about his mark on the head and hand (cf. Rev. 14:8-11). These events of the tribulation were to happen in the forty-two month period (of AD 67-70) immediately preceding the Second Coming.

And he [the beast] was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months…It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation…[and] as many as would not worship the image of the beast [were] to be killed. Rev. 13:5, 7, 15 brackets mine

In Revelation 19 we are shown the defeat of the beast by the Second Coming. The saints that had been killed for not taking the beast’s mark are shown among those that come to life in chapter 20 as the millennium begins. Revelation 20 is thus a continuation of the AD 70 narrative of chapter 19; it is not a recapitulation back to AD 30. Again, One of the groups that come alive at the beginning of the millennium consists of those who had been killed for not taking the mark of the beast. They had gone through the great tribulation (cf. Rev. 7:9-17) and are being resurrected at AD 70 to participate in the millennium.

The sequence I have proposed above is shown in Daniel 7. 1. The Antichrist (the little eleventh horn, Dan. 7:19-20) overcomes the saints. 2. He is defeated by the coming of God. 3. The court is seated (thrones are put in place as the kingdom reign begins, Dan. 7:8-11) as the saints possess the kingdom.

I was watching; and [1] the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [2] until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and [3] the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. Dan. 7:21-22

Again, the same sequence that is shown in Daniel is shown in Revelation. 1. The Antichrist (the individual beast) overcomes the saints (Rev. 13:5-7). 2. He is defeated by the coming of God (Rev. 19:11-21). 3. The saints then possess the kingdom as the millennium begins (Rev. 20:4). This is a pre-millennial sequence; the Second Coming happens right before God’s people possess the kingdom of God. This was James Stuart Russell’s position; he considered any attempts to fit the millennium in before AD 70 to be “violent and unnatural.” [J.S. Russell, The Parousia (Baker, 1999), 514]. It is at the AD 70 coming of God that the saints inherited the kingdom. This explains why one of the groups the come alive at the beginning of the millennium consists of believers who had been killed for not taking the mark of the beast. The millennium began right after the great tribulation at the AD 70 Second Coming, not at AD 30. Again, it was at the coming of God (what the NT will show as the Second Coming) that God’s people possessed the kingdom of God (Dan. 7:21-22; cf. Rev. 19:11-20:4).

Now a full preterist can not accept what I have written here, at least not if he or she wants to stay a 100% full preterist. Full preterism necessitates that all Bible prophecy was fulfilled by AD 70. Thus full preterists have to reject an AD 70 beginning to the millennium; if the millennium did begin at AD 70 it means there is still prophecy yet to be fulfilled (e.g. Satan’s loosing from the abyss at the end of the millennium, Rev. 20:7-10). Full preterists are left with a choice of either accepting what I am saying about an AD 70 beginning of the millennium (which is not going to happen) or attempt to separate the millennial kingdom (which they see as being from around AD 26-30 to sometime before AD 70) from the saints possessing the kingdom at the AD 70 Second Coming (Dan. 7:21-22). Most full preterists (wanting to stay card carrying full prets.) will attempt the latter option (differentiating the beginning of the millennium from the saints possessing the kingdom at the AD 70 Second Coming). Again if a full preterist acknowledges the start of the millennium as being the same as the AD 70 coming of the kingdom (cf. Matt. 19:28; Rev. 20:4) then they violate their basic premise of all prophecy fulfilled by AD 70.

Comparing Daniel 7 with Revelation 20, it is impossible to make a legitimate case that the AD 70 establishment of the kingdom of God of Daniel 7 (vv. 19-27) and the millennium of Revelation 20 are speaking of two different reigns. Of the AD 70 establishment of the kingdom, Daniel 7:9-10 (NRSV) reads, [A] “As I watched, thrones were set in place…[B] The court sat in judgment” (brackets mine). Of the millennium, Revelation 20:4 (NRSV) reads, [A] “Then I saw thrones, and [B] those seated on them were given authority to judge.” I don’t see how one can make these to be two separate events, the first starting at AD 70 the second supposedly starting at AD 30.

It is the AD 70 defeat of the Antichrist (the little eleventh horn) by the coming of God that begins the kingdom reign (Dan. 7:8-11, 21-27). The thrones put in place (Dan. 7:9) at this time (AD 70) of the establishment of the kingdom correspond to the thrones that God’s people occupy at the beginning of the millennium (Rev. 20:4). The beginning of the millennium similarly shows believer’s victory over the Antichrist (the individual beast). Revelation 20:4 speaks of “… [those] who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or hands” (Rev. 20:4; cf. Rev. 13:11-18; 15:2; 19:11-21). The saints inheriting the kingdom of God in Daniel 7 corresponds to the beginning of the millennium in Revelation 20. They are talking about the same event, the setting up of thrones and judgment as God’s kingdom is fully established on earth at AD 70.

Again the sequence that is shown in both Daniel and Revelation is the same. 1. The little horn/beast overcomes the saints. (Dan. 7:21, 25; Rev. 13:5-7). 2. He is defeated by the AD 70 Second Coming (Dan. 7:22; Rev. 19:11-21). 3. It is at this time that the saints possess the kingdom as the millennium begins (Dan. 7:9-10, 22, 25-27; Rev. 20:4). Daniel 7:21-22 presents this sequence simply and clearly.

I was watching; and [1] the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, [2] until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and [3] the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom. Dan. 7:21-22

There is much more to be said. I will hopefully be saying it soon. I am reaching 900 pages (double spaced) with my book, The Antichrist and the Second Coming, A Preterist Examination. I have two or three more months of revisions and then need to get the manuscript to an editor (Is there an editor in the house? If so contact me at Duncan@peoplepc.com ).

For more on J.S. Russell’s position on the millennium see, http://planetpreterist.com/news-5017.html

For more on the Connection between the little horn of Daniel 7 and the beast of Revelation see, http://planetpreterist.com/news-2622.html


First Resurrection CANNOT Be Those Raised During Crucifixion 30AD

Here's why the 1st Resurrection CANNOT be equated with the resurrection of just persons at Christ's Crucifixion:

Let's look at the actual Text
.
Matthew 27:50-53
50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
And let's look at the only passage of Text that actually contains the words "First Resurrection," (Greek has it "The Resurrection the First).

Revelation 20:4-7
I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection .
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection : on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,


Observations:

1) It is understood that Revelation's visions were given AFTER the Cross, AFTER the "many bodies of the saints which slept arose" thereat. Therefore, Rev. 20:6's exhortation to faithfulness during the impending adversity, "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection" would be inane - merely informing those first readers of Revelation that those folk who came back to life decades previously at the Cross were "blessed and holy." Lazarus also had come back to life just a week or so before; as had the widow's son at Nain (Luke 7:15) and the synagogue ruler's daughter (Mark 5:35-43) had earlier in Jesus' ministry; a boy came back to life when Elisha layed upon him (2 Kings 4:32-35); a man came back to life upon falling upon Elisha's bones (2 Kings 13:21); Moses appeared very much alive on the Mt. of Transfiguration (Mat 17:1-4) centuries after his death recorded centuries before (Deut 34:5). None of these were the First Resurrection of Rev 20.

2) Rev 20:4 actually describes those who rewarded by the First Resurrection as "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" -an overt reference to the very Tribulation the Revelation was given as encouragement to overcome. This Tribulation came many years AFTER THE CROSS. Again, these cannot be the same folk who were resurrected at the Cross several decades before the beheadings, Beast worship, Beast-image worship, Beast-mark receiving, etc, began.

3) Rev 20:6 speaks in future tense -future to the giving of the Revelation- of those resurrected in this First Resurrection: "They shall be priests ... " and "[they] shall reign with Him a 1,000 years..."

4) Rev 20:7 "When the 1,000 years are expired, Satan shall be loosed..." Those who insist that the First Resurrection takes place with those resurrected at the Cross circa 30ad, and then go on to assert that "1,000 years" really means "40 years," must also say that Satan is loosed when Jesus comes back at the end of the make-believe "1,000 years" in 70ad: Entirely at variance with the conclusion of Preterism's message, The 70ad Victory of Christ.

Other words could be rightly employed here, but let it suffice to say that it is entirely untenable to posture that those raised at the Cross represent Revelation's First Resurrection. Preterist Christians can do better than this, the very hermeneutics that deduce the Preterist perspective demand it.
*Feel FREE to claim as your own anything I write - while I retain the right to do the same with it*

When exactly was Satan bound, cast & sealed into Bottomless Pit for 1000 years between 30-70AD?

ONE QUESTION for those who insist that

"The Tribulation"+"The 1,000 Years"+"The Little Season of Satan's Release"

all took place during the 40 years between A.D. 30 and A.D. 70:

DURING WHICH OF THESE VERSES BELOW WAS SATAN BOUND IN THE BOTTOMLESS PIT?

Every Preterist attempt to posit The Tribulation+The 1,000 Years+The Little Season of Satan's Release into A.D. 30-70 presents a self-refuting credibility problem: It demands one lay aside the very hermeneutic that deduces the A.D. 70 Return of Christ in the first place, "Take all the time texts strictly serious."

 

First, a quick review of the Text in question:

  1. "The 1,000 Years" is demarked by epoch events which define distinct beginning and ending points.
  2. "The 1,000 Years" begins with Satan being bound, cast & sealed into the Bottomless Pit (Abyss) so that he could deceive the nations no more.
  3. "The souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" - those who were beheaded during the Beast's reign for refusing the mark of the Beast are made to live and reign with Christ while Satan is bound - the reward of their faithfulness.
  4. "The 1,000 Years" ends with Satan being released for "a little season" to deceive again the Nations (the Gentiles).
  5. After "The 1,000 Years," and after "The Little Season," and after the Satan-led armies are destroyed by fire from Heaven, Satan is then cast into the Lake of Fire where the Beast & the False Prophet have been awaiting his arrival.



 

Revelation 20:1-10

20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

 

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands [ie during "The Tribulation"]; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


 

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


 

Here it is now,

BETWEEN WHICH OF THE FOLLOWING VERSES WAS SATAN BOUND IN THE BOTTOMLESS PIT?

FOR 1,000 OR 40 OR EVEN 5 YEARS?

FOR EVEN 5 MINUTES?

.

And if you are gutsy enough:

1) Which exact verse shows Satan being bound, thereby demarking the beginning of "The 1,000 Years"?

2) Which exact verse shows Satan being released, thereby demarking the end of "The 1,000 Years"?

3) Can you organize these verses into 3 categories: a) BEFORE, b) DURING, and c) AFTER "The 1,000 Years" that Satan was bound & cast in the Abyss?


 

Jesus the Christ
27 AD
  Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan : for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.  Matthew 4:10 ~to the Devil

28 AD  And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?  Matthew 8:28-29 ~to devils possessing a man

28 AD  And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.  Luke 10:18-20 ~to His Disciples

30 AD  But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan : thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.  Matthew 16:23 ~to the Apostle Peter

30 AD  And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.  Luke 22:31-32 ~to His Apostle Simon Peter

30 AD  Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world [kosmos] be cast out.  John 12:31 ~to His Disciples

30 AD  Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. 27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.  John 13:26-27 ~at the Last Supper

30 AD  Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world [kosmos] cometh, and hath nothing in me.  John 14:30 ~to His Disciples

30 AD  Of judgment, because the prince of this world [kosmos] is judged.  John 16:11 ~to His Disciples

 

Peter the Apostle to the Circumcision
35 AD
  Acts 5:3
But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?  ~Christ's Apostle Peter spoke to Ananias

 

Jesus appeared to Saul of Tarsus (Paul the Apostle) 
37 AD
 
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.  Acts 26:15-18 ~Christ appeared to Paul and called him to become the Apostle to the Gentiles 

 

Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles
51 AD
 
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil , who are taken captive by him at his will.  2 Timothy 2:25-26 ~Christ's soon-to-be-executed Apostle Paul wrote to his assistant Timothy

52 AD  Wherefore we would have come unto you, even I Paul, once and again; but Satan hindered us.  1 Thessalonians 2:18 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Thessalonica

52 AD  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 2 Thessalonians 2:7-9 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Thessalonica

56 AD  Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan , that they may learn not to blaspheme.  1 Timothy 1:20 ~Christ's soon-to-be-executed Apostle Paul wrote to his assistant Timothy

56 AD  Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.7 Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.  1 Timothy 3:6-7 ~Christ's soon-to-be-executed Apostle Paul wrote to his assistant Timothy

56 AD  For some are already turned aside after Satan.  1 Timothy 5:15 ~Christ's soon-to-be-executed Apostle Paul wrote to his assistant Timothy

56 AD  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.  1 Corinthians 5:4-5 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

56 AD  Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.  1 Corinthians 7:5 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

56 AD  But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.  1 Corinthians 10:20-21 ~Christ's peresecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth  [Kind of looks like the ages of when paganism was rampant was the very same that the devil(s) were on the loose, no?]

57 AD  Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.  2 Corinthians 2:11 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

57 AD  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:4 In whom the god of this world [aionos "age"] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.  2 Corinthians 4:3-4 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

57 AD  And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.  2 Corinthians 11:14-15 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

57 AD  And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.  2 Corinthians 12:7 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Corinth

58 AD  And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.  Romans 16:20 ~Christ's persecuted Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Rome

61 AD  Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world [kosmos], according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:  Ephesians 2:2 ~Christ's imprisioned Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus

61 AD  Neither give place to the devil.  Ephesians 4:27 ~Christ's imprisioned Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus

61 AD  Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.  Ephesians 6:11-13 ~Christ's imprisioned Apostle Paul wrote to the Christians at Ephesus

 

James the Lord's brother
Before 62 AD
 
Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil , and he will flee from you.  James 4:7 ~before Jerusalem Church pillar James was martyred for the Faith

 

Peter the Apostle to the Circumcision
62 AD
 
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil , as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:  1 Peter 5:8 ~Christ's soon-to-be-martyred Apostle Peter wrote to the dispersed churches about their fiery trial

 

John the Apostle whom Jesus loved
62 AD
 
Love not the world [kosmos], neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world [kosmos], the love of the Father is not in him.16 For all that is in the world [kosmos], the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world [kosmos].17 And the world [kosmos] passeth away , and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. ...22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist , that denieth the Father and the Son.  1 John 2:15-18, 22 ~Christ's soon-to-be-exiled Apostle John wrote

62 AD  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.  1 John 4:3-4 ~Christ's soon-to-be-exiled Apostle John wrote

62 AD  And we know that we are of God, and the whole world [kosmos] lieth in wickedness.  1 John 5:19 ~ Christ's soon-to-be-exiled Apostle John wrote

62 AD  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.  2 John 7-11 ~Christ's soon-to-be-exiled Apostle John wrote

 

Jesus in the vision of Revalation
63 AD
 
I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.  Revelation 2:9 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia

63 AD  I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.  Revelation 2:13 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia

63 AD  But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan , as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.  Revelation 2:24 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia

63 AD  Behold,I will make them of the synagogue of Satan , which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.  Revelation 3:9 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia

 

Jesus revealed to John the Apostle by the vision of Revelation
63 AD
 
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan , which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.  Revelation 12:9-17 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia

63 AD  Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.  Revelation 20:1-3 ~Christ's exiled Apostle John foresaw in the predictive vision (Rev 1:1 & Rev 4:1) for the 7 Churches of Asia
NKJV


 

Conclusion:

27-67AD: The New Testament documents more of Satan's interactions against godly men -Christians- during the 27-67AD period than all other history combined. Satan, the god of that age per 2 Cor 4:4, was walking about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, 1 Peter 5:8.

	

RELEVANT LINKS:

Honestly, does the Bible really teach that Satan was bound, cast & sealed into the Deep (Abyss) while Christians ruled with God & Christ throughout the bulk of the 30-70AD period? (Actually, wasn't such blessings what they were expecting to arrive with Christ's soon Return?)

When exactly was Satan bound, cast & sealed into Bottomless Pit for 1000 years between 30-70AD?

When exactly was Satan bound, cast & sealed into Bottomless Pit for even 40 years between Romans 16:20 and 70AD?

3 Questions for every 30-70AD Millennialist

30-70AD: Matthew 23-25 Last Days Tribulation - They knew which GENERATION, their GENERATION

30-70AD: SATAN walked about freely as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour

30-70AD: The Last Hour 1 John 2:18

Against the Errors: 30-70AD Millennialism & Universalism
30-70AD Millennialism: Foundation of Preterist Universalism
"Having Eternal Life" is not equal to "Being Raised Up at the Last Day"
Consistent Full Preterist conclusions lend themselves to Universalism
Bisecting Bi-Millennialism

And this is love, that we walk after Christ's commandments ~2 John 6

Satan was NOT bound around 30AD in the Gospels

Revelation 20:1-3 is NOT fulfilled by Matthew 12:28-29, Mark 3:26-27, Luke 11:21-22

A "Full" Preterist (30-70AD Millennialist) may pronounce,

“We can boldly proclaim Satan has been defeated. All of these verses relate to Jesus being accused of working by the power of Satan/Devil & yet Jesus says He overpowered & bound the "strong man." Therefore, Satan was bound around 30AD during Jesus' ministry as recorded in the Gospels. These verses clearly establish this point:"

Mat 12:28-29 -- But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you. Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Mk 3:26-27 -- And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end. No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
Lk 11:21-22 -- When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
So, what the "Full" Preterist (30-70AD Millennialist) is saying, then, is this:
A) Around 27AD, Jesus explained the process by which He cast out an individual demon from an individual man, Mat 12:28-29, Mk 3:26-27, Lk 11:21-22.

B) Therefore, around 27AD Jesus fulfilled the predictive vision He would give John 35 years later foreseeing Satan being bound with a great chain and cast and sealed into the Deep (Abyss, Bottomless Pit) for a 1000 years.

Let's actually look up these & similar passages within their broader contexts to see if they support the claims of "Full" Preterists (30-70AD Millennialists):

Revelation 20:1-3 ~foreseen around 63AD in the predictive vision by Christ's exiled Apostle John; recalling that Rev 1:1 and Rev 4:1 inform that the Revelation predicts things still yet to come as of its writing
Then I foresaw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. NKJV

But by broadening the portions "Full" Preterists (30-70AD Millennialists) cite, we can then see clearly that in each case Jesus identifies “the strong man” as simply the individual demon that is cast out of an individual man on an individual occasion so that the man may be saved. “That the strong man’s goods might be plundered” = “that the demon-possessed man might be rescued back to God, (saved).” Jesus is merely describing the process and Power by which He cast out an individual demon in order to redeem an individual man. Only someone desperate to force a contrived scheme upon the Scriptures would attempt to force a different conclusion.
For evidence, let’s look at the full context to see what Jesus was saying in those passages:
Matthew 12:22-30 ~preached around 28AD by Jesus, the Son of God
22 Then one man was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, "Could this be the Son of David?"
24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, "This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."
25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges. 28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.
NKJV
Matthew 12:43-45 ~preached around 28AD by Jesus, the Son of God
43 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. 44 Then he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall [future] it also be with this wicked generation."
NKJV
Mark 3:20-27 ~preached around 28AD by Jesus, the Son of God
20 Then the multitude came together again, so that they could not so much as eat bread. 21 But when His own people heard about this, they went out to lay hold of Him, for they said, "He is out of His mind."
22 And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said,"He has Beelzebub," and, "By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons."
23 So He called them to Himself and said to them in parables: "How can Satan cast out Satan? 24 If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25 And if a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26 And if Satan has risen up against himself, and is divided, he cannot stand, but has an end. 27 No one can enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man. And then he will plunder his house.
NKJV
Luke 11:14-26 ~preached around 28AD by Jesus, the Son of God
14 And He was casting out a demon, and it was mute. So it was, when the demon had gone out, that the mute man spoke; and the multitudes marveled. 15 But some of them said,"He casts out demons by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons."
16 Others, testing Him, sought from Him a sign from heaven. 17 But He, knowing their thoughts, said to them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and a house divided against a house falls. 18 If Satan also is divided against himself, how will his kingdom stand? Because you say I cast out demons by Beelzebub. 19 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. 20 But if I cast out demons with the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 21 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace (house), his goods are in peace. 22 But when a stronger than he comes upon him and overcomes him, he takes from him all his armor in which he trusted, and divides his spoils. 23 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
24 "When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he says, 'I will return to my house from which I came.' 25 And when he comes, he finds it swept and put in order. 26 Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first."
NKJV

So again, these passages actually demonstrate that Jesus was merely describing the process and Power by which He cast out an individual demon in order to redeem an individual man on an individual occasion. Only someone desperate to force a contrived scheme upon the Scriptures would attempt to force a different conclusion. They certainly DO NOT equate with that anticipated by the Revelation's predictive vision granted 35 years later to the persecuted & exiled Apostle John:

Revelation 20:1-3 ~foreseen around 63AD in the predictive vision by Christ's exiled Apostle John; recalling that Rev 1:1 and Rev 4:1 inform that the Revelation predicts things still yet to come as of its writing
Then I foresaw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. NKJV

CONCLUSION:
Contrary to the reckless claims of "Full" Preterists (30-70AD Millennialists) there remains to be seen any Bible evidence that: before the time, during the Gospels, Jesus bound Satan and cast & sealed him into the Deep (Abyss, Bottomless Pit) , thus beginning the 1000-year Millennium and fulfilling the predictive vision of Revelation 20:1-3 that Jesus was to give about 35 years later. Satan was NOT bound around 30AD in the Gospels, rather, Satan was very much loose and walking about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour, LINK.

Revelation 20:1-3 is NOT fulfilled by Matthew 12:28-29, Mark 3:26-27, Luke 11:21-22

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Response to "kramden327" Dave's : "Reigning" in the Millenial Kingdom

"Reigning" in the Millenial Kingdom
Hi everyone,

I had an exchange with a futurist who couldn't understand how pret's could explain past fulfillment of believers ''reigning" with Christ in Rev 20. They couldn't see how believers ruled or reigned at any time yet. Aside from this not being a literal 1000 yrs IMO, I would like any comments/corrections from some of you who have probably thought this one out more than me. This is what I wrote 'on another network' as they say:

******************

I think the problem is how we define 'rule'. If we think in terms of earthly, physical, traditional kingdoms - then you're right, the Christians certainly didn't rule over Rome in the first few centuries after the Old Covenant passed away. But let's look at it another way, maybe ruling spiritually, which is how Jesus always described His Kingdom. He never said it was an earthly kingdom.

In fact, He said it was the opposite - 'not of this world.' He was rejected because they were looking for a tougher king who would pound the bad guys and lead Israel to world domination. They wanted some payback and 'rule' over the Romans for a change. Jesus said we could rule with Him in His Kingdom, but not like that. Put the sword down Peter. We will have to rule His way, not our way.

The non-believing world looks at the life of Jesus and concludes it was an utter failure. The Jewish leaders mocked him and sarcastically called Him a King. They considered His words babbling and blasphemy. He was poor, no home, no family, was often on the run, and of course, thankfully for our sake, was brutally beaten and crucified. Doesn't sound like a ruler at all from the world's perspective.

But I know you believe Jesus was victorious even here on earth in His human body. Because you/we look at Him not as the world did/does. We read His words and they are beautiful. We see His love and perfect example and are in total awe. We see how he treated those who hated Him, and how He suffered for us - the last thing we see is utter failure. We see a perfect ruler, even while He was on earth.

Same thing with the apostles and especially Paul. By anyone's worldly standard, Paul had a terrible life. You know what it was. But they were joyous right to their end. No one ruled over them. Do you think Paul considered himself ruled over by the Romans? No way Jose. They may have been physically 'ruled' over - superficially. But in a way far superior to anything temporary and physical, believers know in their hearts that we are not ruled over by anyone except our Lord. Certainly not Christ rejecting people measuring their satisfaction by secular standards. The apostles had a peace only found in Christ. Same thing for you and I today.

So, by God's definition of 'ruling' (the only one that counts), would you say that believers are ruling over the non-believers, or are we not? We are ruling for sure, just not by the world's standard. We are ruling the way it matters most. I'm at peace because we are ruling in God's eyes, not by anything we have done, but thanks to the perfect work of our Saviour Jesus Christ. He's the stone that crushed all the other earthly kingdoms.

*************

Comments?

Thanks,

Dave

By kramden327 on 2006 Dec 16 - 07:58 http://thekingdomcome.com/node/586


"Reigning" in the Millennial Kingdom: NOT UNTIL CHRIST’S 70AD RETURN
A response to Dave "kramden327"
By ProphecyHistory.com at Tulsa Preterist Association
Intro note:
DAVE may as well titled this, "Reigning" in the Amillennial "kingdom." Nothing DAVE wrote here is predicated upon Christ's accomplished Return. Christ's Return is not mentioned even once: the fulfillment of Christ's Return is irrelevent to DAVE's explanation of the Saints "reigning" with Christ. What DAVE does offer above, with no Scripture and easy approval, is no different than classic Amillennialism: that "reigning" started around Christ's earthly ministry and continues the same way forever from there, nothing predicated upon Christ's accomplished Return, not even a mention of it. But the whole reason we get excited about Preterism's past fulfillment view is that we, like the rest of Christendom, have seen in the Word something world-changingly marvelous about Christ's Return, and that His Return to live among us forever occurred around 70AD. I invite DAVE and the reader to rethink and adopt a truly fulfilled position.
[DAVE] Hi everyone,
I had an exchange with a futurist who couldn't understand how pret's could explain past fulfillment of believers ''reigning" with Christ in Rev 20. They couldn't see how believers ruled or reigned at any time yet.
[JOHN] Few people really know their Bibles beyond what is spoon-fed them Sunday mornings or on the radio, not to mention anything about history, even Christian history.
[DAVE] Aside from this not being a literal 1000 yrs IMO,
[JOHN] Fair enough. But I think it is interesting that no one ever offers from Scripture any solid reason why not a “1,000” “years” with the same meanings for such terms as the rest of the Bible’s use for them – it always seems to boil down to the same kind of unbelief & ignorance that the futurist expresses here on this topic.

[DAVE] I would like any comments/corrections from some of you who have probably thought this one out more than me. This is what I wrote 'on another network' as they say:

[JOHN] I am glad to oblige. I will agree every chance I can and point out with what I believe to be constructive criticism –for your & the readers’ benefit- where I cannot agree with you.
[DAVE] I think the problem is how we define 'rule'.
[JOHN] Agreed.
[DAVE] If we think in terms of earthly, physical, traditional kingdoms - then you're right, the Christians certainly didn't rule over Rome in the first few centuries after the Old Covenant passed away.
[JOHN] FALSE. The Roman Empire, that Gentile, idol-worshipping, world-dominating, sole-superpower was driven to declare itself a Christian nation within 250 years of Christ’s 70AD Return, (Constantine the Great's 313AD Edict of Toleration & 325AD Council of Nicea). This is an astonishing achievement. From the period of 70AD to 313AD, Christians converted Romans faster than Romans killed Christians – the losses to both sides mirror that of major, prolonged world conflict, i.e. WARFARE. And the dominant social forces within the dominant world powers have been from Christians ever since. That is, the dominant power over daily lives is religion, and the dominant religion over the dominant world powers has been the Religion of Christ ever since this world-shaking revolution that drove the old, pagan Roman Empire to its knees before Christ and His People. And what took its place? The Byzantine (Eastern Roman Empire), an overtly Christian dominion, so much so that when the Mohammaden revolt took place, it was characterized as a revolt against Christendom.
[DAVE] But let's look at it another way, maybe ruling spiritually, which is how Jesus always described His Kingdom. He never said it was an earthly kingdom.
[JOHN] He never said it wasn’t, either. DAVE's use of the word "maybe" indicates speculation. Jesus simply said His Kingdom was not FROM here, not that it did not had no direct power here. It was not FROM here, it was still on its way here from the Heavens, arriving with Him at His 70AD Return, John 14:1-3. Jesus Christ personally gave the Revelation to John. Here’s some things Jesus said in Revelation, written around 63AD:
RED = PRESENT tense, at the time of writing of that verse of Scripture.
BLUE = FUTURE tense, future to the time of writing of that verse, i.e., when the Lord comes in 70AD.
Rev 2:26-27
26 And he who OVERCOMES (PRESENT), and KEEPS (PRESENT) My works until the end, to him I WILL (FUTURE) give power over the nations —
27 'He shall rule them with a rod of iron;
They shall be dashed to pieces like the potter's vessels'*
as I also HAVE RECEIVED (PAST PERFECT tense) from My Father;
NKJV

Remember, Revelation was a predictive vision given around 63AD of those "things that were shortly to come to pass," i.e., coming to pass shortly AFTER the 63AD writing of Revelation, (Rev 1:1 and Rev 4:1).

In the predictive Vision, John foresaw:
Rev 11:15-16
15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying,"The kingdoms* of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" NKJV
[DAVE] In fact, He said it was the opposite - 'not of this world.'
[JOHN] NO. “Not from this (present pre-70AD) world” is NOT the opposite of “earthly, physical” as you say. You may need to learn a little something about language: the preposition “of” and he preposition “from” are often the same exact word in many languages. Greek is one of them. Jesus was not “FROM” that present world, but He surely was physical, and physically moving on Earth.
NT:1537 ‎ ‎ek or ex ; a primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence action or motion proceeds), from, out (of place, time, or cause; literal or figurative; direct or remote):
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
John 8:23
I am not from (ek) this world (kosmou #2889).
John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not from (ek) this world (kosmou #2889). If My kingdom were from (ek) this world (kosmou #2889), My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here." NKJV
[DAVE] He was rejected because they were looking for a tougher king who would pound the bad guys and lead Israel to world domination. They wanted some payback and 'rule' over the Romans for a change.
[JOHN] True. Who do you think gave them that idea?
Here’s what the Word of God spoke through Daniel,
Dan 2:44-45
44 "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever. 4
Dan 4:17
the Most High rules in the kingdom of men,
Gives it to whomever He will,
And sets over it the lowest of men.'
Daniel 4:25-27
until you recognize that the Most High is ruler over the realm of mankind, and bestows it on whomever He wishes. 26 'And in that it was commanded to leave the stump with the roots of the tree, your kingdom will be assured to you after you recognize that it is Heaven that rules. 2
Daniel 7:26-28
26 'But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 'Then the sovereignty, the dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.' 2
John the Baptist became famous by announcing
Matthew 3:2-3
"Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand."
[DAVE] Jesus said we could rule with Him in His Kingdom, but not like that. Put the sword down Peter. We will have to rule His way, not our way.
[JOHN] (BTW, Jesus was also the One Who had just told that very night to buy a sword if they did not have one, Luke 22:34-36). Christ’s way of ruling includes a whole lot more than just what you are outlining here. The time would not come until AFTER His 70AD Return with His Kingdom, not until AFTER “the kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord,” (Rev 11:15), before anything but the suffering servant approach to introducing the Kingdom of the Heavens, the Kingdom of God. Just like DAVE here, their timing was off: they were expecting the kingdom and the reigning to begin with Christ's earthly ministry, but they were wrong and Christ devoted a parable to correct their error. See 70AD: "The Last Day" & Christ Arrive, His Servants Raised to Reign
[DAVE] The non-believing world looks at the life of Jesus and concludes it was an utter failure.
[JOHN] True. That is because they instinctively deny and are willfully ignorant of the insurmountable weight of Christian authority over world affairs since Christ’s 70AD Return. They just cannot admit to themselves openly that the real movers and shakers throughout history since 70AD have been and continue to be the people who profess faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The most stunning success of history has been that within 300 years of Christ's death as a capitol criminal in a remote corner of the Roman Empire, that last idol-worshipping, Gentile, world-dominating, sole superpower was compelled to throw itself to its knees and declare itself a Christian nation. During the 70AD to 313AD period, Christians converted Romans faster than Romans could slaughter Christians: the losses to both sides are staggering and compare to that of major world conflicts, WARFARE. The Church won and the government of the ancient world's greatest superpower collapsed into the arms of a vibrant & growing, worldwide Church. Religion remains the dominant power over people's lives and the dominant religion within the dominant world powers has been the Religion of Christ ever since - there is neither Biblical evidence nor historical precedence that this arrangement, this kosmos, will ever change back.
[DAVE] The Jewish leaders mocked him and sarcastically called Him a King.
[JOHN] Actually, it was the Roman soldiers who did this, (Matthew 27:11 and Matthew 27:27-31 and Matthew 27:37 and Mark 15:2 and Mark 15:9-20 and Luke 23:3 and Luke 23:38 and John 18:33-40 and John 19:1-6 and John 19:19-22). Unwittingly, as the Earth’s representatives of Ceasar, they & Pontius Pilate had just crowned Him, granting the title, “King of the Jews” to Jesus Christ, as God saw it. As God moved through Caesar to crown Herod "King of the Jews" decades before, God moved through Caesar's representative, Pontius Pilate & his men, to grant Jesus the same title, "King of the Jews." "What I have written, I have written."~ Pontius Pilate, official representative of Caesar in Palestine.
[DAVE] They considered His words babbling and blasphemy.
[JOHN] They tangibly felt threatened by Him and His growing authority over the masses of humanity that gravitated towards Him and were powerfully moved by Him. This is why they hastened to have Him killed off. But some babbling nutjob, or even a murderous nutjob like Barrabas was considered harmless enough to let go. There is something powerful at work when Jesus Christ, the King, is living among His People, and they were afraid of it: they were afraid it would overthrow them and warned the Romans of the same. And for good reason: all of them were overthrown by Christ & His People in good time - AFTER His 70AD Return with His Kingdom to be reunited forever with His People.

[DAVE} He was poor,

[JOHN] Noble men travelled great distances to present Jesus with the royal treasures of gold, frankincense, and myrrh at His birth. His adoptive father and He were skilled artisans, carpenters, from a sizable family (how many brothers & sisters of Jesus are mentioned? Matthew 13:55-56); and His was a prominent family (openly traceable to King's David, Solomon, etc.); that would make Jesus most likely middle class – 'till He laid it all aside to minister. But a group of women, some of them prominent, provided for Him, (Luke 8:2-3 and Matthew 27:55-56 and Mark 15:40-41 and John 19:25). And professional Roman soldiers each made sure to get an article of His clothing, having a little lottery for amongst themselves just for the coat, John 19:23-24.

[DAVE] no home,

[JOHN] Jesus had a residence in Capernaum, (Matthew 4:13 and Mark 2:1 and Mark 9:33).

[DAVE] no family,

[JOHN] There are number of references about Jesus interacting with His family like this one at the beginning of His earthly ministry, during His earthly ministry, and the end of His earthly ministry.

John 2:12
12 After this He went down to Capernaum, He, His mother, His brothers, and His disciples; and they did not stay there many days.
Acts 1:13-14
13 And when they had entered, they went up to the upper room, where they were staying; that is, Peter and John and James and Andrew, Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon the Zealot, and Judas the son of James. 14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.
NASB

[DAVE] (Jesus) was often on the run,

[JOHN] Please show one verse, even just one verse where Jesus ran, ran from anybody, backed down from anybody, hid from anybody, or was “on the run.” Only this one passage comes to mind: and you don’t “pass right though the midst” of an enraged crowd by running, as if it didn’t depend upon God’s grace.

Luke 4:28-30
28 And all in the synagogue were filled with rage as they heard these things; 29 and they rose up and cast Him out of the city, and led Him to the brow of the hill on which their city had been built, in order to throw Him down the cliff. 30 But passing through their midst, He went His way. NASB
.
Christ personally exuded the grace, authority & power of a protected Prince, the King-to-be, that prevented such harm to come to Him or His Disciples - and the Disciples worried how they would survive in its absence until He Returned with His Kingdom & power again; but Jesus comforted their fears about His temporary absence with the promise of the Holy Spirit & power, John 16:1-16, (and see Christ's Return Brings the Kingdom of God WITH POWER not Without).
[DAVE] and of course, thankfully for our sake, (Jesus) was brutally beaten and crucified.

[JOHN] True. And, as demonstrated by His tangible power demonstrated at His “arrest,” He was more in control of the masses at His most vulnerable moments than Pontius Pilate ever was. No one ever did anything to Jesus that He did not allow.

John 18:3-11
3 Judas then, having received the Roman cohort and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, "Whom do you seek?" 5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. 6 So when Jesus said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Therefore He again asked them, "Whom do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus the Nazarene." 8 Jesus answered, "I told you that I am He; so if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one." 10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"NASU
[DAVE] Doesn't sound like a ruler at all from the world's perspective.
[JOHN] This is for at least 3 reasons:
1) The world and worldy Christians do not bother to think about it enough to realize how much in control of His surroundings Jesus really was at all times, and
2) Jesus did do some things that most people with that kind of power & authority would never dream of doing – sacrifice for others, and
3) The time for reigning had not yet arrived – not until He Returned with His Kingdom with power in 70AD.

[DAVE] But I know you believe Jesus was victorious even here on earth in His human body. Because you/we look at Him not as the world did/does. We read His words and they are beautiful. We see His love and perfect example and are in total awe. We see how he treated those who hated Him, and how He suffered for us - the last thing we see is utter failure. We see a perfect ruler, even while He was on earth.

[JOHN] I see a Man who perfectly ruled Himself, setting us an example. And by serving the needs of others, He won their gratitude, their hearts, through the which He began to rule them. He won their respect and affections enough that they voluntarily submitted to His rule. But I also see a Man who knew the time and that the time had not yet arrived for Him to “rule the nations with a rod of iron” and “shatter them like pottery,” (Psalm 2:9). That was to begin at His Return in 70AD, (Rev 2:26-29 and Rev 12:5 and Rev 19:11-16).

[DAVE] Same thing with the apostles and especially Paul.

[JOHN] True: the unbelieving world thinks of Jesus, His Apostles, Paul, Christianity, Christendom, you and me as "losers," even though 2.5 of the world's 7 billion people claim to be "Christian" in one form or another, even though the dominant world superpowers all have significant Christian heritages. The unbeleving world is blind, ignorant and unthinking, and powerless. It can only be Paul that you were thinking about that was “always on the run,” as with the rest of the apostles. This is where Paul says it. Please note how Paul wrote this explicitly to corrects their, and your, error that they were already "reigning" prior to Christ's Return with His Kingdom and power.

RED = PRESENT tense, at the time of writing of that verse of Scripture.
BLUE = FUTURE tense, future to the time of writing of that verse, i.e., when the Lord comes in 70AD.
1 Corinthians 4:1-21 ~ written around 53AD
4 Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Moreover it is required in stewards that one be found faithful. 3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged by you or by a human court.* In fact, I do not even judge myself. 4 For I know of nothing against myself, yet I am not justified by this; but He who judges me is the Lord. 5 Therefore judge [reign as a king] nothing before the time, UNTIL THE LORD COMES, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one's praise will come from God.
6 Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively transferred to myself and Apollos for your sakes, that you may learn in us not to think beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up on behalf of one against the other. 7 For who makes you differ from another? And what do you have that you did not receive? Now if you did indeed receive it, why do you boast as if you had not received it?
8 You are already full! You are already rich! You have reigned as kings without us (SARCASM)and indeed I COULD WISH YOU DID REIGN (PRESENT SUBJUCTIVE TENSE), that WE ALSO MIGHT REIGN WITH YOU! (PRESENT SUBJUNCTIVE TENSE)9 For I think that God has displayed us, the apostles, last, as men condemned to death; for we have been made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men. 10 We are fools for Christ's sake, but you are wise in Christ! We are weak, but you are strong! You are distinguished, but we are dishonored! 11 To the present hour we both hunger and thirst, and we are poorly clothed, and beaten, and homeless. 12 And we labor, working with our own hands. Being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we endure; 13 being defamed, we entreat. We have been made as the filth of the world, the offscouring of all things until now.
14 I do not write these things to shame you, but as my beloved children I warn you. 15 For though you might have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet you do not have many fathers; for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. 16 Therefore I urge you, imitate me.17 For this reason I have sent Timothy to you, who is my beloved and faithful son in the Lord, who will remind you of my ways in Christ, as I teach everywhere in every church.
18 NOW some ARE puffed up, as though I were not coming to you. 19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord wills, and I will know, not the word of those who are puffed up, but the power. 20 For the kingdom of Godis not in word but in power. 21 What do you want? Shall I come to you with a rod, or in love and a spirit of gentleness? NKJV
[DAVE] By anyone's worldly standard, Paul had a terrible life. You know what it was. But they were joyous right to their end.
.

[JOHN] That is because they were looking forward to something joyful that was coming at the end, upon arrival of the Last Day: the world-changing Return of Christ that was to occur before their generation passed away. They were looking forward to something BIG to happen before their generation ended. They were looking forward to reigning with Christ at His Return with His Kingdom and power. This earnest expectaion is what gave them joy, even as Jesus "for the joy set before Him endured the Cross, despising its shame,"

Hebrews 12:1-4
Therefore we also, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which so easily ensnares us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin.
NKJV

Here’s some more of what Jesus, the Word of God, spoke through His Apostle Paul, (remember Matthew 10:40 and Mark 9:40 and John 13:20),

1 Corinthians 6:1-3
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unrighteous, and not before the saints? 2 Do you not know that THE SAINTS WILL JUDGE (REIGN OVER) THE WORLD? And if THE WORLD WILL BE JUDGED (REIGNED OVER) BY YOU, are you unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Do you not know that WE SHALL (FUTURE) JUDGE angels? How much more, things that pertain to this life?
NKJV
RED = PRESENT tense, at the time of writing of that verse of Scripture.
BLUE = FUTURE tense, future to the time of writing of that verse, i.e., when the Lord comes in 70AD.
2 Timothy 2:8-20 ~ written around 62AD
8 Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. 10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. 11 It is a trustworthy statement:
For if we DIED (PAST – before 62AD) with Him, we SHALL (FUTURE) also LIVE with Him;
12 If we ENDURE (PRESENT – at 62AD), we SHALL (FUTURE) also REIGN with Him;
If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless, and leads to the ruin of the hearers. 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, handling accurately the word of truth. 16 But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, 17 and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and thus they upset the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal, "The Lord knows those who are His," and, "Let everyone who names the name of the Lord abstain from wickedness." 2 NASB
Romans 8:8-25 ~ written around 57AD
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10 And if Christ IS (PRESENT, 57AD) in you, though the body IS dead because of sin, yet the spirit IS alive because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead DWELLS (PRESENT, 57AD) in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead WILL (FUTURE) ALSO GIVE LIFE TO YOUR MORTAL BODIES through His Spirit who indwells you.
12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh — 13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you ARE (PRESENT, 57AD) putting to death the deeds of the body, you WILL LIVE (FUTURE to 57AD).14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, "Abba! Father!" 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we SUFFER (PRESENT, 57AD) with Him in order that we MAY ALSO BE GLORIFIED (CONDITIONAL FUTURE SUBJUNCTIVE TENSE) with Him.
18 For I consider that the sufferings OF THIS PRESENT TIME ARE (PRESENT, 57AD) not worthy to be compared with the glory that IS TO BE (FUTURE TENSE) revealed to us.19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also WILL (FUTURE) BE SET FREE from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, WAITING EAGERLY FOR OUR ADOPTION AS SONS, THE REDEMPTION OF OUR BODY.24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one also hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. NASB
RED = PRESENT tense, at the time of writing of that verse of Scripture.
BLUE = FUTURE tense, future to the time of writing of that verse, i.e., when the Lord comes in 70AD.
1 Thessalonians 2:19-20 ~ written around 51AD
19 For who is our hope or joy or crown of exultation? Is it not even you, in the presence of our Lord Jesus AT HIS COMING? 20 For you are our glory and joy. NASB
2 Corinthians 13:4-5 ~ written around 54AD
4 For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also ARE WEAK (PRESENT, 54AD) in Him, yet we SHALL (FUTURE) LIVE WITH HIM because of the power of God directed toward you. 5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! NASB
1 Thessalonians 5:9-11
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with Him. 11 Therefore encourage one another, and build up one another, just as you also are doing. NASB
[DAVE] No one ruled over them. Do you think Paul considered himself ruled over by the Romans? No way Jose.
[JOHN] This is what Paul wrote,
Romans 13:1-7 ~ written around 57AD
13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake.6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. NKJV
[DAVE] They may have been physically 'ruled' over - superficially. But in a way far superior to anything temporary and physical, believers know in their hearts that we are not ruled over by anyone except our Lord.
[JOHN] And the Lord God rules through the civil authorities – He has established every one of them. Look again at the passage above, Romans 13:1-5, penned by Paul of all people.
[DAVE] Certainly not Christ rejecting people measuring their satisfaction by secular standards.
[JOHN] Paul wrote Romans 13:1-7 at a time when Nero was the darling of the Emperor’s court, he wrote it at a time when he had already experienced the heavy hand of those same people in civil authority who employed the powers of government to promoted ceasar-idol worship and to allow themselves to be manipulated from time to time into harassing Christ’s People, even as Paul himself had once done as “Saul of Tarsus,” (Acts 8:1-3 and Acts 9:1-3). Christ's Words through His Apostle Paul in Romans 13:1-5 carry the same authority over our lives today as it did then, even if some of the same kind of people are in some positions of civil authority.
[DAVE] The apostles had a peace only found in Christ.
[JOHN] True. And just about only in Christ. They lived into a greater tribulation, a greater trial to their newfound faith than what later Christian have ever seen since, since Christ’s 70AD Return with His Kingdom & power - this dramatically turned the tables. We will never go back even if some regions appear to do so for a season.
[DAVE] Same thing for you and I today.
[JOHN] While it is true that there is a certain peace found only in Christ. It is NOT TRUE that we live here and now in a condition similar to that of the Apostles and the first generation of Christians. As much as an exaggeration as it is for some to say we are going through as difficult a time as the Reformation, it is much more an exaggeration to say that Christ’s faithful ministers are being hounded from town to town and beaten and treated as the scum of the Earth throughout the major world superpowers as in Paul’s day. Those things happen today, granted, but in the backwater corners of civilization with the condemnation of the world’s superpowers rather than with its open approval and funding. Today, we have people like Billy Graham reaching out to 1 billion people in a single television outreach - only possible with the approval of many world governments. And who can enumerate the many, many TV stations, radio, book distributions, internet outreaches, and church building, etc. etc., that we take for granted today but were well beyond even the dreams of the Apostles.
And many people who reject Christ throughout much of the world are enjoying a great abundance of peace, too. It is directly attributable to the civil authorities that have implemented many of the things taught by Christ’s People over the centuries. You can see the movie, “Amazing Grace” and do a little homework on William Wilburforce to see this in action. Recall our own Martin Luther King, a Baptist preacher of Salvation in Christ alone. And recall the peace & prosperity gained from technological breakthroughs from the likes of such monumental figures as Isaac Newton, a very deeply Christian man. And what of John Witherspoon, the revolutionary Presbyterian preacher of American independence and pastor of a good number of the signatories of the Declaration of Independence?
[DAVE] So, by God's definition of 'ruling' (the only one that counts),
[JOHN] No, God’s definition of ‘ruling’ is not the only one that counts. God the Word has carefully composed a book that is intended to be understood by its human readership. He has carefully selected words that carry with them meanings –definitions- that humans attributed to those words at the time the Scriptures’ writing. God cares about us. God cares about human beings. He considers our needs and is aware of our definitions of things, too. And it just so happens, that God’s definition of ‘ruling’ includes a whole lot more than what you have outlined here: it includes overt, physical, visible, tangible rule, rule even with “a rod of iron,” (Ps 2:9 and Rev 2:27 and Rev 12:5 and Rev 19:15), and even “the sword,” (Romans 13:4 and Luke 22:36-38).

[DAVE] would you say that believers are ruling over the non-believers, or are we not?

[JOHN] Yes we are definitely agreed on this point, but in far more ways than you have outlined, many of which are overt, tangible and visible.

[DAVE] We are ruling for sure, just not by the world's standard.

[JOHN] You are mistaken. We are ruling by the world’s standard, as well, even if the world lies to itself about it as they have a long history of doing with everything else relating to God. Notwithstanding, most of the whole world outside recognizes America as being largely under the influence of Christian teaching, even if some Christians are blind to this. And it does not go unnoticed that virtually ALL of our Presidents and the sweeping majority of our Senators and Congressmen and State governors and mayors publically trumpet their Christianity – especially while running for office. Much the same could be said of the controlling world governments & powers. This is so inescapable to those outside Christ that a my best friend in High School, who has since become an atheist, after years of political interest and law school bemoans, “I really would like gear my life around politics and running for public office, but I don’t stand a snowball’s chance in hell because I am not a Christian and I am not willing to lie about it.” Some of you guys need to do like Gideon did and go listen in at the tents of the Midianites sometimes, Judges 7:12-15.

[DAVE] We are ruling the way it matters most.
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[JOHN] We are ruling in every way: in government, in academia, in business, in the arts & literature, in our communities and in our churches and families and in our own hearts. There is hardly a worthwhile realm or arena that can be mentioned where Christians are not champions and dominant. This far exceeds what they had prior to the Lord's 70AD Return, when all they were learning to rule over was their own bodies.
[DAVE] I'm at peace because we are ruling in God's eyes, not by anything we have done, but thanks to the perfect work of our Saviour Jesus Christ. He's the stone that crushed all the other earthly kingdoms.
*************
Comments?
Thanks,
Dave

[JOHN] He did not come with His Kingdom as “the stone that crushed all the other earthly kingdoms” until 70AD. THAT is why the meek have indeed inherited the Land of Promise and controlling interest in the whole Earth, (Psalms 37:11 and Matthew 5:5) – and our share of control just keeps growing, like a mountain, the mountain of Daniel 2:34-35 and Daniel 2:42-45. I am at peace in my soul because of Christ's Mosaic Law-fulfilling Cross at 30AD and still further, I am at peace in my body because of Christ's fulfilling the Prophets by His 70AD Return with His Kingdom & power. God & Jesus showed up together and made their Home with men at Christ’s 70AD Return – in fulfillment of the sayings of the Prophets and of Jesus. If not, we might be getting ready to head for the hills of Pella, (or the Appalachians), at any time and hope that our Y2K provisions hold out long enough. No, we have available to us since Christ’s 70AD Return all the peace Peter, Paul & Mary, the Disciples & His brothers ever had, and a whole lot more that they could only dream about.

2 Kings 6:16-18
16 So he answered,"Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them." 17 And Elisha prayed, and said, "Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see." Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha. 18 So when the Syrians came down to him, Elisha prayed to the Lord, and said, "Strike this people, I pray, with blindness." And He struck them with blindness according to the word of Elisha. NKJV

The people of the World are often blind to the fact that we've got them surrounded and outgunned in ways they can never imagine. And they do not even know who or what to target to make it any different. They are often without clue who the real kings & rulers are among them. And one of the most sought after prizes of people who are movers & shakers is personal privacy, anonymity. And God has graciously added even this to His chosen ones.

Its been fun, Dave "kramden327 ", a good Bible study,

ProphecyHistory.com

30-70AD: What the New Testament says about Satan not being bound prior to AD 70

by Duncan McKenzie

There is no indication in the New Testament of Satan being bound in the abyss during the time between AD 30 and the AD 70 parousia. To the contrary, Satan is portrayed as being active in the world during this time (as my position would predict). Some try to prove that Satan was bound at AD 30 by citing Jesus' comment about his ministry binding the strong man (Matt. 12:28-29). There is no doubt that Jesus' ministry was curtailing the powers of Satan (cf. Luke 10:17-20). Yet Revelation 12:1-12 shows that it was only at the ascension (i.e., the male Child being caught up to God's throne, v. 5) that Satan was fully cast out of heaven (cf. John 12:31-32). Notice that he is cast unbound to the earth at this time (Rev. 12:7-12)—not bound and thrown into the abyss. This would result in a time of trial for the earth (v. 12) that would last until the AD 70 end of "a time and times and half a time" (v. 14)—a time period that Scripture always shows as ending at the AD 70 full establishment of God's kingdom (cf. Dan. 7:25-27, Dan. 12:7).


Consistent with this, in 2 Corinthians 4:4 Paul (c. AD 55) calls Satan "the god of this age" (i.e., the pre AD 70 age). In Ephesians Paul (c. AD 60) refers to Satan as "the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience." (Eph. 2:2). Peter writing in the early AD 60's said Satan "walks about like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour" (1 Peter 5:8). James (c. 48-62) said that the Devil needed to be resisted (James 4:7). Similarly, Paul (c. AD 60) exhorts believers to put on the whole armor of God so they could stand against the "wiles of the devil" as well as the "fiery darts" that he was then shooting (Eph. 6:11, 16). In 1 Thessalonians 2:18 Paul (c. AD 50) writes of being "hindered" by Satan (cf. 2 Thess. 2:9). John (c. AD 60-65) said that the whole world was "in the power of the evil one" (1 John 5:19 NASB). That does not sound very bound to me!


The NT paints a picture of Satan being loose and active on the earth rather than bound in the abyss during the period of AD 30 to AD 70. Some full preterists attempt to get around this by saying that the scriptures cited above speak of the time at the end of the millennium when Satan is loosed (Rev. 20:7). To do this, however, they would have to put the end of the millennium around AD 50 or 60 (to explain why Paul told the Thessalonians that he was hindered by Satan in AD 50 or why he would say to the Ephesians that Satan was currently working in the sons of disobedience around AD 60). This would cut the millennium down to around 20-30 years in length (from around AD 30 to around AD 50-60). If this were true then it would mean that John was writing (c. AD 65) about a millennium that had already ended! It would mean that the "thousand years" during which Satan was bound and God's people fully shared in Jesus' reign was over before the readers of Revelation had even heard of it! That of course makes no sense whatsoever. The millennium was being held out as an incentive to those who would face the soon coming individual beast (cf. Rev. 11:3-12); the promise was that even those who were killed for not taking his mark (Rev. 13:11-18) would have a part in the soon coming full establishment of Jesus' kingdom reign (Rev. 20:4, cf. 2:26-27; Luke 19:11-27).